{"id":14448,"date":"2010-03-25T17:38:29","date_gmt":"2010-03-25T20:38:29","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/beta.idanca.net\/?p=14448"},"modified":"2010-04-24T10:29:49","modified_gmt":"2010-04-24T13:29:49","slug":"auf-den-tisch-por-meg-stuart-e-trajal-harrell","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/idanca.net\/auf-den-tisch-por-meg-stuart-e-trajal-harrell\/","title":{"rendered":"‘Auf den Tisch!’ por Meg Stuart e Trajal Harrell | ‘Auf den Tisch!’, by Meg Stuart and Trajall Harrel"},"content":{"rendered":"

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Cristiane Bouger entrevistou <\/em>Meg Stuart <\/em><\/a>e Trajal Harrel sobre o projeto <\/em>Auf den Tisch!,<\/em><\/strong> apresentado no dia 6 de novembro de 2009 durante a <\/em>Performa 09<\/em><\/a>, que aconteceu no Howard Gilman Performance Space\/Baryshnikov Arts Center, em Nova York. Este texto foi publicado originalmente no <\/em><\/span>Critical Correspondence.<\/a> <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

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Cristiane Bouger: Eu gostaria de come\u00e7ar pedindo que voc\u00ea fale sobre a partitura de improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o e mais especificamente sobre como voc\u00ea estabelece a sequ\u00eancia da improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o. Como voc\u00ea trabalha esta estrutura?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

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Meg Stuart: Para este projeto ou em geral? <\/strong><\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

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Cristiane: Para este trabalho especificamente.<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

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Meg: A primeira coisa \u00e9 a configura\u00e7\u00e3o, que \u00e9 uma proposta bem clara e que tem estado em todas as edi\u00e7\u00f5es de Auf den Tisch!<\/strong> Ent\u00e3o, a configura\u00e7\u00e3o \u00e9 muito espec\u00edfica por causa do contexto, n\u00e3o \u00e9 uma improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o geral, mas o espa\u00e7o indica que h\u00e1 uma confer\u00eancia. H\u00e1 uma indica\u00e7\u00e3o de que estamos em uma situa\u00e7\u00e3o de confer\u00eancia e estes quatro microfones na nossa frente s\u00e3o sempre a imagem inicial, o ponto de partida, o que indica aos performers que o di\u00e1logo, a troca e o debate s\u00e3o t\u00e3o importantes quanto o movimento. Eu comecei pedindo que cada performer trouxesse algo, uma partitura, uma proposta ou uma posi\u00e7\u00e3o que eles gostariam de colocar na mesa, e tivemos alguns ensaios. Nos encontramos na ter\u00e7a (3 de novembro de 2009) para o primeiro espet\u00e1culo, que foi na sexta (6 de novembro de 2009) e encontramos a plateia para o ensaio geral, quando ficou claro quais eram as quest\u00f5es dos performers. Eu diria que \u00e9 um tipo de partitura solta que funde as pessoas numa coisa s\u00f3. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

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Cristiane: Ent\u00e3o voc\u00ea n\u00e3o estabelece uma sequ\u00eancia a partir das partituras que cada performer trouxe durante os ensaios?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

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Meg: N\u00e3o. De maneira alguma. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

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Cristiane: As coisas simplesmente acontecem?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

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Meg: Eu acho que elas acontecessem pelo di\u00e1logo, porque existem inten\u00e7\u00f5es que os outros performers colocam. N\u00f3s queremos conversas \u00edntimas, queremos falar sobre certos assuntos e as coisas s\u00e3o colocadas neste per\u00edodo de ensaio e est\u00e3o \u00e0 m\u00e3o para serem acessadas pelas pessoas durante a performance. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

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Cristiane: Isto \u00e9 interessante. Ent\u00e3o, cada performer tem que entender o momento para trazer sua quest\u00e3o espec\u00edfica para a mesa… N\u00e3o h\u00e1 sequ\u00eancia, de forma alguma?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

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Trajal Harrell: N\u00e3o. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

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Cristiane: O que me fez pensar que havia? Eu realmente achei que havia. <\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

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Meg: \u00c9 o come\u00e7o. E eu esque\u00e7o de me prender a esse come\u00e7o porque acho que isso significa ouvir, e todo mundo est\u00e1 falando sobre o corpo, e na verdade est\u00e3o falando sobre um corpo compartilhado e um corpo de conhecimento compartilhado… Meio que sintoniza a plateia para aquele tipo de espa\u00e7o democr\u00e1tico, porque estamos todos naquele espa\u00e7o de escuta e n\u00f3s j\u00e1 estamos expressando isso. O input sonoro \u00e9 t\u00e3o importante quanto o visual. E isto est\u00e1 colocado bem no come\u00e7o. Eu acho que \u00e9 um come\u00e7o bem claro. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

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Cristiane:Sim. \u00c9 o tipo de projeto que depende muito da habilidade de ouvir e perceber o momento certo para trazer as coisas \u00e0 tona, mudar ou alterar o que est\u00e1 acontecendo. Como \u00e9 para voc\u00ea perceber isto como performer e como lidar com este tipo de informa\u00e7\u00e3o?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

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Trajal: \u00c9 muito espec\u00edfico da estrutura de confer\u00eancia. Eu acho que \u00e9 uma proposta t\u00e3o forte exatamente por ser em uma confer\u00eancia. Acho que realmente tentamos n\u00e3o brincar de confer\u00eancia. Estamos em uma discuss\u00e3o, estamos desenvolvendo um certo jeito de pensar sobre a improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o, um certo jeito de improvisar e estamos em confer\u00eancia, ent\u00e3o ouvir \u00e9 inevit\u00e1vel e intr\u00ednseco a uma confer\u00eancia. Quanto aos performers, isto tem que ser negociado atrav\u00e9s da escuta e da fala e da performance, todas estas coisas requerem um n\u00edvel de hist\u00f3ria que desenvolvemos nos ensaios, como Meg estava falando. Eu acho que quando se trata de ouvir, n\u00e3o \u00e9 radical. Porque precisa ser, voc\u00ea precisa ouvir para realmente funcionar. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

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Meg: Eu acho que se voc\u00ea traz um grupo internacional de performers e improvisadores e os coloca eles juntos e diz: \u2018Ok, agora voc\u00eas v\u00e3o performar, esse tipo de compartilhamento de conhecimento e essas negocia\u00e7\u00f5es, esse encontro, diversas l\u00ednguas, estar no momento, ouvindo e respondendo, tudo isso j\u00e1 est\u00e1 presente. De alguma forma, s\u00f3 estamos fazendo com que isso seja mais vis\u00edvel. Torna-se vis\u00edvel pela maneira como o espa\u00e7o \u00e9 delineado, mas j\u00e1 est\u00e1 presente quando bons improvisadores est\u00e3o juntos. Mas de alguma forma, estamos sintonizando ou amplificando isso, ent\u00e3o fica mais presente para o p\u00fablico. Acho que tem uma camada para o p\u00fablico, mas existe outra camada para os performers, na qual eles t\u00eam tamb\u00e9m a chance de apontar, de refletir, n\u00e3o apenas de dan\u00e7ar, mas tamb\u00e9m de ter um discurso compartilhado sobre improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o. Outro assunto. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

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Cristiane: Ok\u2026 mas eu quero apenas mencionar que achei isso muito interessante porque mesmo que seja impl\u00edcito \u00e0 improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o escutar o corpo do outro, e nesse caso o discurso do outro tamb\u00e9m, tendemos a considerar que falar \u00e9 mais importante do que ouvir. Eu senti que houve uma negocia\u00e7\u00e3o interessante que voc\u00ea nos permitiu experimentar junto com os performers no exato momento em que eles est\u00e3o lidando com estas quest\u00f5es. Falando de performers, como voc\u00ea chegou a este grupo espec\u00edfico de artistas? Refiro-me ao elenco de Nova York. <\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

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Meg: Eu queria algumas pessoas de Nova York e algumas pessoas da Europa, e n\u00e3o necessariamente um grupo confort\u00e1vel, mas um grupo que estivesse conectado de alguma forma ou ao qual eu me sentisse conectada. Yvonne Meier, por exemplo, eu conheci h\u00e1 20 anos e at\u00e9 estudei com ela um pouco e estava muito interessada em sua abordagem de partituras. Keith Hennessy eu acabei de conhecer, ele fez minha oficina em um encontro bem curto e intenso. Eu queria tamb\u00e9m um grupo maduro e um grupo no qual houvesse uma certa tens\u00e3o por haver diferentes ideologias, diferentes pr\u00e1ticas, diferentes tipos de abordagem. Eu tamb\u00e9m queria bailarinos\/performers que eu conhecesse bem \u2013 V\u00e2nia (Rovisco) j\u00e1 esteve em meu trabalho e trabalhamos juntas por cinco anos. Mas ela \u00e9 de outra gera\u00e7\u00e3o, est\u00e1 improvisando por si s\u00f3. E da\u00ed Anja (M\u00fcller) est\u00e1 no meu trabalho atual, ent\u00e3o \u00e9 algu\u00e9m com quem passei um ano improvisando diariamente no est\u00fadio. Pessoalmente, estou interessada em diferentes abordagens, diferentes hist\u00f3rias para cruzar. Eu queria pessoas que fossem pensadores, que se sentissem confort\u00e1veis para falar e que pudessem passar fluentemente da a\u00e7\u00e3o para a reflex\u00e3o, da fala ao ato. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

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Trajal: Exatamente. Eu acho que foi tamb\u00e9m a minha contribui\u00e7\u00e3o, j\u00e1 que conhe\u00e7o um pouco a cena de Nova York. Eu estava tentando achar pessoas diferentes que tivessem uma rela\u00e7\u00e3o com a improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o, mas que viessem de pontos de vista diferentes, ou de ideologias ou metodologias diferentes. Acho que isso foi fundamental porque, \u00e9 claro, David, Yvonne e eu somos muito diferentes. Yvonne tem um forte legado de improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o em Nova York e ela \u00e9 de certa forma um s\u00edmbolo da hist\u00f3ria da improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o <\/em>em Nova York. E<\/em> David<\/em> Thomson \u00e9 algu\u00e9m muito conhecido por ser esse bailarino incr\u00edvel em Nova York, mas ele tamb\u00e9m tem improvisado muito. Ele vem com a hist\u00f3ria de Trisha Brown em seu corpo, e ele tem trabalhado com Ralph Lemon, entre outros. Acho que a improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o tem sido boa parte de sua pr\u00e1tica ao trabalhar com estes core\u00f3grafos. Conhe\u00e7o George Emilio Sanchez como algu\u00e9m sobre o qual ouvi falar muito e que tem muita opini\u00e3o. Ele tamb\u00e9m tem uma rela\u00e7\u00e3o muito direta com esta hist\u00f3ria e esta cena, pois ele tem atuado como membro do conselho do Movement Research e ele atua muito em espet\u00e1culos do mundo da dan\u00e7a. Ent\u00e3o pensei que ele seria algu\u00e9m que traria uma acuidade muito verbal para tudo isso, mas tamb\u00e9m poderia se relacionar, pois ele tem uma rela\u00e7\u00e3o com a pr\u00e1tica de palco. No meu caso, estudei improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o mais enquanto um jovem estudante de teatro, muito mais do que hoje. Quer dizer, s\u00f3 agora est\u00e1 come\u00e7ando a fazer parte da minha pesquisa e da maneira como componho. Por querer certas possibilidades no trabalho, improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o \u00e9 uma forma de trazer outro tipo de textura para o trabalho. Acho que muitos core\u00f3grafos est\u00e3o usando a improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o desta forma hoje em dia… Mas preciso dizer que o meu sentido de improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o mais forte vem de ser uma crian\u00e7a muito pequena na igreja Afro-americana e presenciar o sentido de linguagem verbal e f\u00edsica extraordin\u00e1ria que acontece l\u00e1. Isso \u00e9 o que eu me lembro mais. Quando ouvi falar de improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o, pensei \u2018Ah, isso tem muito a ver com o que estava acontecendo no meu tipo de cultura sulista\u2019. Mesmo meu av\u00f4 cantando na varanda. Meu av\u00f4 cantava blues o tempo todo na varanda. Ele tinha um grupo e eles cantavam quando se reuniam <\/em>em sua casa. Era<\/em> muito normal. E, \u00e0s vezes, garotos na rua come\u00e7avam a ensinar uma nova dan\u00e7a e era sempre improvisado. Mas na minha pr\u00e1tica art\u00edstica, eu nunca fui muito fundo na improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o ou no contato-improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o. Apesar de eu ter eu sempre ter observado, n\u00e3o fazia parte da minha pr\u00e1tica de est\u00fadio. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

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Cristiane: Eu acho que existe uma divis\u00e3o e um tipo de conflito entre trabalhos que s\u00e3o ensaiados e trabalhos que s\u00e3o improvisados, mas voc\u00ea estava dizendo que muitas dan\u00e7as s\u00e3o improvisadas; improvisar \u00e9 uma coisa natural. Nas dan\u00e7as de rua, as pessoas lidam com isso de forma mais natural. E trazer isso para o espa\u00e7o da performance \u2013 embora haja toda uma hist\u00f3ria de improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o \u2013, \u00e9 interessante por colocar a quest\u00e3o em uma confer\u00eancia onde as pessoas podem olhar de um \u00e2ngulo diferente e discutir ou assistir a uma discuss\u00e3o sobre improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o de uma maneira, talvez, mais formal. J\u00e1 que uma confer\u00eancia \u00e9 algo muito formal em rela\u00e7\u00e3o a uma pr\u00e1tica que \u00e9, de alguma maneira, oposta a este tipo de estrutura estabelecida. <\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

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Trajal: \u00c9, \u00e9 muito dif\u00edcil. \u00c9 isso que faz com que Keith seja realmente interessante porque ele est\u00e1 tamb\u00e9m escrevendo sua tese de doutorado em improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o, n\u00e3o sei bem sobre o que \u00e9 a sua tese, mas eu sei que ele tem feito muito pela improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o de diferentes maneiras \u2013 e isso tamb\u00e9m \u00e9 muito claro quando ele trava um di\u00e1logo sobre improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o na mesa. \u00c9 muito claro que ele est\u00e1 desenvolvendo uma maneira inteligente de pensar e escrever sobre essas quest\u00f5es. Mas em geral, acho que a linguagem sobre como falamos sobre improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o ainda est\u00e1 sendo desenvolvida e discutida, e que ainda \u00e9 uma \u00e1rea discursiva problem\u00e1tica. At\u00e9 mesmo dizer que a improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o \u00e9 ensaiada \u00e9 question\u00e1vel para algumas pessoas. N\u00e3o \u00e9 algo que n\u00e3o \u00e9 ensaiado s\u00f3 porque n\u00e3o \u00e9 repetido. Estamos ensaiando, vamos ensaiar agora. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

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Meg: Eu sou treinada <\/em>em Contato [Improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o<\/em>] e senti que veio muito facilmente e eu gostei porque me senti muito confort\u00e1vel de alguma forma. Mas ent\u00e3o percebi que havia uma grande lacuna no que eu queria mostrar no meu pr\u00f3prio trabalho, o qual se refere aos os problemas de comunica\u00e7\u00e3o, coisas que evitam que pessoas fiquem juntas e eu n\u00e3o queria esta… Para mim, as coisas n\u00e3o s\u00e3o necessariamente iguais, n\u00e3o \u00e9 \u2018eu rolo em cima de voc\u00ea e voc\u00ea rola em cima de mim\u2019 e n\u00f3s t\u00ednhamos esse acordo. Normalmente, h\u00e1 muito mais tens\u00e3o, e eu queria tamb\u00e9m inserir essa tens\u00e3o. Ent\u00e3o eu estava sempre tentando entender como eu podia usar o Contato, usando alguns de seus princ\u00edpios ou at\u00e9 mesmo entrando em outros campos \u2013 como Contato com artes visuais, Contato com m\u00fasicos ou espa\u00e7o \u2013 ou de que maneira podemos trabalhar com diferentes linguagens e, n\u00e3o diverg\u00eancias, mas as coisas se tornarem mais dissonantes, umas pressionando contra as outras. Isto tem sido uma busca cont\u00ednua para mim nas mais diferentes formas. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

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Cristiane: Uma das coisas que me interessam \u00e9 a tens\u00e3o entre a espontaneidade da fala e do movimento e a rela\u00e7\u00e3o de um certo tipo de press\u00e3o em dizer a coisa certa ou coerente para come\u00e7ar um movimento, a\u00e7\u00e3o ou reflex\u00e3o ou romp\u00ea-los. Como isso funciona quando voc\u00eas est\u00e3o se apresentando? Como voc\u00eas lidam com esta tens\u00e3o entre espontaneidade e press\u00e3o?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

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Meg: N\u00e3o sei bem o que voc\u00ea quer dizer em termos de press\u00e3o…<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

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Cristiane: Basicamente… (olhando para Trajal). Voc\u00ea sabe o que quero dizer, certo?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

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Trajal: Sim, eu sinto muito isso em performance. Acho que tem a ver com risco e experi\u00eancia. Quero dizer, os melhores improvisadores est\u00e3o muito sintonizados de alguma forma. [Para Meg] E voc\u00ea tamb\u00e9m \u00e9 muito boa nisso porque eu aprendi muito observando voc\u00ea fazendo isso. \u00c9 um n\u00edvel de estar em sintonia com voc\u00ea mesmo, o que est\u00e1 acontecendo com voc\u00ea, e tamb\u00e9m conhecer o todo t\u00e3o bem… Voc\u00ea tem um impulso: \u00e9 hora para este impulso? Claro, se voc\u00ea pensa muito sobre o impulso acaba o matando… Ent\u00e3o \u00e9 uma sintoniza\u00e7\u00e3o e uma constante calibra\u00e7\u00e3o das coisas… \u00c9 tocar um instrumento, voc\u00ea est\u00e1 tocando tanto o instrumento da sua performance pessoal quanto o instrumento da performance toda. E isso \u00e9 o que os melhores improvisadores fazem, eles s\u00e3o capazes de assumir esses riscos, n\u00e3o se preocupar, confiar, entrar fundo, sabe… Eles tamb\u00e9m s\u00e3o capazes de brincar com aquilo. \u00c9 um desafio, \u00e9 dif\u00edcil, \u00e9 um inferno. Quer dizer, \u00e9 isso o que \u00e9. Claro, se voc\u00ea tem uma press\u00e3o enorme para fazer alguma coisa, para fazer a coisa funcionar, e voc\u00ea n\u00e3o pode simplesmente estar \u2018fazendo\u2019 algo o tempo todo. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

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Meg: \u00c9\u2026 Acho que conten\u00e7\u00e3o e \u2018n\u00e3o fazer\u2019 s\u00e3o grandes a\u00e7\u00f5es. Isso \u00e9 uma escolha muito poderosa, muito importante. E tamb\u00e9m sempre lembrar do contexto. Quer dizer, onde voc\u00ea est\u00e1 para que voc\u00ea n\u00e3o se deixe levar pelo momento e tamb\u00e9m saber que est\u00e1 em uma linha temporal. \u00c9 um evento que est\u00e1 marcado no tempo, ent\u00e3o h\u00e1 uma diferen\u00e7a entre o primeiro minuto e o d\u00e9cimo minuto e o trig\u00e9simo minuto. E tamb\u00e9m tentar acompanhar, de modo que n\u00e3o esteja simplesmente passando por um carretel, mas algo do tipo \u2018Ok, esse evento aconteceu, este evento est\u00e1 acontecendo, esta pessoa est\u00e1 aqui\u2019… Ent\u00e3o voc\u00ea realmente sintonizou com o timing da coisa toda tamb\u00e9m. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

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Cristiane: J\u00e1 aconteceu de membros da plateia subirem espontaneamente para falar nos microfones ou para performar com voc\u00eas na mesa?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

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Meg: N\u00e3o espontaneamente, quer dizer, mesmo no ensaio geral, convidamos dois membros da plateia para dan\u00e7ar no final e no final fizemos algumas perguntas. Eu achei bem interessante. Falamos sobre se \u2018h\u00e1 um discurso em Nova York sobre improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o ou n\u00e3o?\u2019. E da\u00ed um dos membros da plateia disse que n\u00e3o h\u00e1 discurso <\/em>em Nova York. Ponto.<\/em> E<\/em> da\u00ed alguns membros da plateia deram sua opini\u00e3o. Ent\u00e3o achei bem empolgante quando eles se envolveram na discuss\u00e3o, mas na maior parte n\u00e3o tivemos nenhum tipo de a\u00e7\u00e3o sabotadora ou algu\u00e9m for\u00e7ando uma barra e acho que eles t\u00eam sido muito respeitosos. Quer dizer, parece que est\u00e3o abertos, mas n\u00e3o se enfiam sem algum tipo de gesto ou convite. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

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Cristiane: Como voc\u00ea atua como moderadora desta confer\u00eancia com o tempo da a\u00e7\u00e3o? Na noite passada voc\u00ea n\u00e3o interferiu muito, certo?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: Eu n\u00e3o sou moderadora nesse sentido. Quer dizer, eu tenho a configura\u00e7\u00e3o e n\u00f3s [eu e Trajal] escolhemos o elenco juntos, mas eu tenho que ter uma profunda confian\u00e7a neles e tamb\u00e9m na natureza da improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o. Os acordos s\u00e3o feitos pelo grupo \u2013 este grupo espec\u00edfico \u2013 e eles foram discutidos: como por exemplo, quanto de estrutura temos ou n\u00e3o. E tamb\u00e9m h\u00e1 um certo n\u00edvel de confian\u00e7a, ent\u00e3o de alguma forma, no momento do show, eu tamb\u00e9m estou em uma base igualit\u00e1ria [com os demais performers]. Porque eu acho se voc\u00ea come\u00e7a a censurar no meio, pode ser muito perigoso. Quer dizer, tem um jeito de dizer \u2018Ok, t\u00e1 faltando isso ou isso \u00e9 para ser tirado, ou num certo n\u00edvel, eu quero ver isso\u2019, mas n\u00e3o cortar as pessoas ou podar seus impulsos porque isso pode causar um bloqueio real na express\u00e3o do grupo. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: Eu gosto de pensar sobre esse corpo pol\u00edtico naquele espa\u00e7o e ao mesmo tempo para pensar sobre o discurso pol\u00edtico ou ativista e como em certos momentos isso aparece no trabalho de dan\u00e7a. Muitas vezes me pergunto por que dan\u00e7ar ou porque assistir \u00e0 dan\u00e7a, ou porque escrever sobre dan\u00e7a e, de alguma forma, para mim, pessoalmente, a coisa mais importante na dan\u00e7a \u00e9 o ato pol\u00edtico de mover o corpo de forma mais livre. Como voc\u00ea se relaciona com isso quando voc\u00ea traz esse tipo de discurso pol\u00edtico para a mesa e, \u00e9 claro, isso vem de pessoas diferentes e suas quest\u00f5es espec\u00edficas, mas como voc\u00ea percebe esse discurso pol\u00edtico e porque isso \u00e9 t\u00e3o importante agora?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Trajal: Eu acho que h\u00e1 tr\u00eas maneiras para responder esta quest\u00e3o… Uma \u00e9 que o pessoal \u00e9 pol\u00edtico, as escolhas que fazemos, as coisas que trazemos para o palco, a maneira como criamos as condi\u00e7\u00f5es, as pr\u00e1ticas que desenvolvemos ao redor do trabalho…<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: A escolha de estar ali. <\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Trajal: Isso \u00e9 pol\u00edtico. Para mim, fazer este projeto \u00e9 pol\u00edtico. Eu entro por inteiro porque acredito que \u00e9 radical e que \u00e9 importante que a dan\u00e7a tenha uma voz, especialmente em Nova York, e \u00e9 como algu\u00e9m disse naquela noite, n\u00e3o h\u00e1 discurso <\/em>em Nova York. Bem<\/em>, \u00e9 verdade, n\u00e3o h\u00e1 discurso e isso \u00e9 bem marginalizado, sabemos isso sobre a dan\u00e7a de Nova York e muitos de n\u00f3s estamos constantemente tentando resolver esta quest\u00e3o. N\u00famero dois, eu acho que neste contexto da [bienal] Performa, \u00e9 muito importante falar sobre esta forma. N\u00e3o \u00e9 um protesto, de forma alguma, mas \u00e9 um grande testamento pol\u00edtico ter isto no festival, para as pessoas come\u00e7arem a pensar sobre isto e ver seu valor e ler esta entrevista… porque isso que \u00e9 incr\u00edvel nesta forma: h\u00e1 um limite, vamos cair na real, sabe. Balanchine disse que n\u00e3o h\u00e1 irm\u00e3os adotivos na dan\u00e7a. E eu sempre me lembro disso por que \u00e9 realmente verdade. A menos que voc\u00ea diga que ele \u00e9 o irm\u00e3o adotivo, \u00e9 realmente dif\u00edcil fazer um movimento para entender que aquela pessoa \u00e9 um irm\u00e3o adotivo, ok? E acho que irm\u00e3o adotivo \u00e9 muito importante porque, \u00e9 claro, \u201cadotivo\u201d n\u00e3o diz respeito apenas ao irm\u00e3o, \u00e9 sobre a pol\u00edtica de casamento e div\u00f3rcio e bl\u00e1, bl\u00e1, bl\u00e1. Ent\u00e3o, quando pensamos sobre este tipo de forma, isso permite um outro n\u00edvel de abordagem da dan\u00e7a, de politizar a dan\u00e7a, de pensar sobre essas quest\u00f5es culturais e sociais da improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o. Como a Meg disse antes, isso as amplifica de forma que se tornam vis\u00edveis para o p\u00fablico. Tr\u00eas, acho que esse contexto de Nova York tem tanta fun\u00e7\u00e3o pol\u00edtica e n\u00e3o estou falando apenas sobre educa\u00e7\u00e3o e fazer as pessoas acharem que isso \u00e9 bom, mas acho que realmente precisamos re-avaliar o papel das artes na cultura e na sociedade. Meg perguntou outro dia se \u201cos soldados no Afeganist\u00e3o improvisam?\u201d Quer dizer, isso j\u00e1 diz tudo. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: Acho que h\u00e1 tamb\u00e9m um cruzamento de formas, quero dizer que h\u00e1 improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o e h\u00e1 performance, mas d\u00e1 para ver tamb\u00e9m que \u00e9 um tipo de extens\u00e3o deste interesse renovado pelo Movement Research [Performance] Journal e tamb\u00e9m, os praticantes podem ter propriedade sobre o seu pr\u00f3prio discurso. \u00c9 tamb\u00e9m trazer o discurso de volta para o corpo. Ent\u00e3o h\u00e1 duas coisas… Mas n\u00e3o \u00e9 como se houvesse apenas experts falando sobre o que estamos fazendo ou cr\u00edticos falando sobre o que bailarinos e core\u00f3grafos est\u00e3o fazendo, mas eles tamb\u00e9m est\u00e3o entre eles pensando \u201cei, tamb\u00e9m queremos discutir entre n\u00f3s, queremos ter este tipo de plataforma para n\u00f3s mesmos.\u201d Acho que \u00e9 interessante que todos que est\u00e3o na mesa como praticantes tamb\u00e9m est\u00e3o compartilhando riscos. \u00c0s vezes, acho \u00e9 dif\u00edcil quando algu\u00e9m faz um trabalho e um cr\u00edtico ou expert aparece, mas aqui eu adoro… Acho que \u00e9 pol\u00edtico o fato de estarmos todos nos arriscando em todos os sentidos, mesmo os que est\u00e3o fazendo perguntas, os que est\u00e3o respondendo, os que est\u00e3o deitados no ch\u00e3o, o que fica pelado… e somos todos colocados nesse mesmo n\u00edvel compartilhado, acho que \u00e9 isto muito cr\u00edtico tamb\u00e9m. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Trajal: Sim.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: \u00c9 muito interessante ver esse aspecto pol\u00edtico cada vez mais na dan\u00e7a, porque o teatro tem uma longa tradi\u00e7\u00e3o de teatro pol\u00edtico e a dan\u00e7a est\u00e1 ficando cada vez mais pol\u00edtica, n\u00e3o s\u00f3 em termos tem\u00e1ticos, mas tamb\u00e9m na a\u00e7\u00e3o. Este trabalho \u00e9 uma importante plataforma para refletir sobre isso atrav\u00e9s desse cruzamento de experi\u00eancias e quest\u00f5es. Tamb\u00e9m fiquei intrigada com a foto de uma confer\u00eancia da OTAN usada para promover o trabalho. Eu consigo ver algumas camadas de significados nesta op\u00e7\u00e3o, mas eu gostaria que voc\u00ea falasse mais sobre a decis\u00e3o de escolher aquela imagem…<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: \u00c9, acho que todo mundo pode ter imediatamente uma imagem dela, ela fala sobre como as pessoas nesta mesa s\u00e3o experts, mas acho que h\u00e1 toda uma gama de tradu\u00e7\u00f5es e diferentes pontos de vista. H\u00e1 muito entendimento, mas tamb\u00e9m muito desentendimento e lobby… Vamos dizer que as pessoas t\u00eam quest\u00f5es… \u00c9. Acho que eu s\u00f3 coloquei em outro espa\u00e7o ao inv\u00e9s de mostrar uma imagem de uma mesa de jantar ou outros tipos de mesa com grandes grupos que se pode imaginar. E tamb\u00e9m d\u00e1 para ter claramente a ideia de confer\u00eancia e que h\u00e1 coisas para serem resolvidas. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: E a OTAN \u00e9 uma organiza\u00e7\u00e3o de seguran\u00e7a e voc\u00eas est\u00e3o falando sobre risco…<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: \u00c9, pode ser tamb\u00e9m. Acho que crise e emerg\u00eancia s\u00e3o frequentemente um pressuposto quando se fala de improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: Gosto de pensar sobre como a dimensionalidade das coisas pode mudar completamente nossa percep\u00e7\u00e3o. Eu me sinto realmente afetada por aquela mesa enorme e pelo modo como sua imagem poderia virar um palco, mas tamb\u00e9m flui para a imagem de um espa\u00e7o de celebra\u00e7\u00e3o ou uma mesa de confer\u00eancia… Ent\u00e3o, voc\u00ea criou um espa\u00e7o que pode virar muitos espa\u00e7os. Voc\u00ea tem algo a dizer sobre o fluxo entre o pol\u00edtico, o palco e os aspectos celebrat\u00f3rios? <\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

(Sil\u00eancio)<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: (sorrindo) Talvez seja s\u00f3 a minha interpreta\u00e7\u00e3o pessoal.<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: \u00c9…<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Trajal: Acho que \u00e9 pura potencialidade. (pausa) Est\u00e1 tudo l\u00e1…<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: Eu espero que quando exista uma a\u00e7\u00e3o \u2013 nem quero chamar de fisicalidade ou movimento \u2013 na mesa, que exista outra forma de perceber esta a\u00e7\u00e3o… Mesmo que n\u00e3o seja definido ou emoldurado por aqueles que est\u00e3o falando, mesmo que seja apenas sil\u00eancio, quer dizer, movimento com m\u00fasica, quero que pare\u00e7a que \u00e9 fala, \u00e9 express\u00e3o… voc\u00ea sabe, n\u00e3o se diz ‘Ok, aqui \u00e9 a parte de dan\u00e7a’. Mas eu tamb\u00e9m meio que espero que voc\u00ea perceba diferentemente por causa do contexto. Quer dizer, eu muitas vezes vejo o movimento como texto, vejo como autoria, vejo como express\u00e3o. Trabalho com a intelig\u00eancia de cada parte do corpo e como ele pode expressar e o que mais \u00e9 expresso entre linguagens e al\u00e9m das linguagens… E tenho muita f\u00e9 no corpo e no movimento tamb\u00e9m! \u00c9, isso \u00e9 outra parte, um tipo de plataforma para isso. \u00c9 parte do que queremos tamb\u00e9m. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: As marca\u00e7\u00f5es de luz e som tamb\u00e9m s\u00e3o improvisadas? Quer dizer, \u00e9 claro que h\u00e1 deixas, mas eles escolhem o que usar em momentos espec\u00edficos?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: Eles est\u00e3o improvisando, n\u00e3o quer dizer n\u00e3o est\u00e3o preparados, o dia todo ontem Jan (Maertens) estava l\u00e1, eles acompanharam nosso encontro e nossas sess\u00f5es e eu trabalhei tanto com Jan quanto com Hahn (Rowe) \u2013 com Hahn por muito tempo, mas com Jan em muitas produ\u00e7\u00f5es \u2013 ent\u00e3o, eles estavam improvisando com a experi\u00eancia de encontrar sintonia e consci\u00eancia… O Jan tem acompanhado este projeto Auf den Tisch!<\/strong><\/em>, mas n\u00e3o h\u00e1 dire\u00e7\u00f5es estabelecidas… Eles discutem, Jan discute seu conceito comigo, mas eles fazem suas pr\u00f3prias escolhas ao longo da apresenta\u00e7\u00e3o<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: Tem alguma coisa importante sobre o projeto que voc\u00ea gostaria de dizer que ainda n\u00e3o discutimos?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

(Sil\u00eancio)<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: Informa\u00e7\u00f5es que voc\u00ea gostaria de compartilhar sobre o futuro do projeto?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: N\u00e3o h\u00e1 planos para o futuro, embora eu sinta que era o projeto certo, na hora certa, no lugar certo, vamos colocar assim. Eu fiquei realmente feliz com a resposta do p\u00fablico ontem. Com os bailarinos, n\u00e3o \u00e9 bem gostar ou n\u00e3o gostar ou ter uma boa apresenta\u00e7\u00e3o… Foi assim… Acho que foi bem profundo e fez com que as pessoas realmente pensassem sobre o que estavam fazendo, pensar sobre que tipo de di\u00e1logo estavam tendo e acho que foi um grande encontro. Sabe, eu tenho uma vis\u00e3o de que esta mesa poderia ficar em Nova York e outras pessoas poderiam improvisar nela ou trabalhar nela. Acho que h\u00e1 uma necessidade… Estou curiosa sobre como isso vai movimentar as coisas em rela\u00e7\u00e3o \u00e0 troca e \u00e0 improvisa\u00e7\u00e3o <\/em>em Nova York. Espero<\/em> que movimente. <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: Como ir\u00e1 ecoar\u2026<\/em><\/strong> <\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: \u00c9, os ecos. Estou interessada nos ecos.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: Obrigada.<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: Obrigada.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Trajal: Obrigado.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane Bouger<\/strong> \u00e9 diretora de teatro, dramaturga, performer e videoartista. Ela trabalha e mora em Nova York, onde escreve sobre dan\u00e7a e arte contempor\u00e2nea para The BraSilians, Movement Research Performance Journal e Critical Correspondence. Ela \u00e9 membro do Coletivo Couve-flor \u2013 Minicomunidade art\u00edstica mundial. www.cristianebouger.com<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Leia tamb\u00e9m:\u00a0Conversa futurista entre Chamecki e Lerner<\/a><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane Bouger interviewed Meg Stuart<\/a> and Trajall Harrell about the Auf den Tisch!<\/strong><\/em> project, presented on November 6th, 2009, at Howard Gilman Performance Space\/Baryshnikov Arts Center, during Performa 09. The interview was originally published at Critical Correspondence<\/a>.<\/span><\/p>\n

::
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane Bouger: I would like to start by asking you to talk about the improvisational score and more specifically about how you establish the sequence of the improvisation. How do you work on that structure?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg Stuart: For this table project or generally?<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: Specifically for this work.<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: The first thing is the set up, which is a very clear proposal and has been in every edition of Auf den Tisch!.<\/strong> So the set up is not a general improvisation, but indicates that it is a conference. There is a guideline that we are in a conference situation and these four microphones before us are always the starting image, the starting point, which indicates to the performers that dialogue, exchange and debate are as important as movement. I started asking each performer to come with something, either a score, a proposal or a stand which they want to put on the table, and we have some rehearsals. We met on Tuesday (Nov 3rd) for the first show, which was on Friday (Nov 6th) and we met audience for the dress (rehearsal) when it became clear what are the issues of the performers. I would say with that there is a kind of loose score that melts people together.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: So you do not establish a sequence from the scores every performer brought to you during the rehearsals?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: No. Not at all.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: Things just happen?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: I think they happen by dialogue because there are intentions others put out. We want intimate conversation, we want to talk about certain topics, and things are expressed in this rehearsal period, which are at hand to be accessed by people during the performance.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: That\u2019s interesting. So, each performer has to understand the moment to bring his\/her specific issue to the table… There is not a sequence, at all?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Trajal Harrell: No.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: What made me think it really was? I really thought it was.<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: It is the beginning. And I forget to really stick to that beginning because I think it signifies a listening and everybody is talking about the body and it is talking about a shared body and a shared body of knowledge\u2026 It kind of tunes the audience for all that kind of democratic space, because we are all in that listening space, and we are already expressing that. The audio input is as important as the visual input. And that is kind of put that way right at the beginning. I think that is a very clear start.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: Yeah. It is the kind of project that relies a lot on the ability of listening and perceiving the right moment to bring things out, change or shift what is going on. How to perceive that as a performer and how to deal with this kind of information?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Trajal: It is very specific to the framework of the conference. I think this is such a strong proposal because it is being in a conference. I think we really try not to play conference. We are in a discussion, we are developing a certain way of thinking about improvisation, a certain way of improvising and we are conferencing, so listening is inevitable and inextricable to having the conference. And for the performers, it has to be negotiated through listening and through speaking and through performing, and all those things require a level of history that we develop through rehearsals as Meg was just saying. I think when it comes to the listening it is not radical because it has to be, you have to listen if it is going to function really.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: I think if you bring an international group of performers and improvisers and you put them together and say, \u201cOkay, now we are going to perform\u201d, this sharing of knowledge and these negotiations, this meeting, diverse languages, being in the moment, listening and responding, it is all already present. Somehow we are just making it more visible. It is becoming visible because of the way the space is delineated, but it is already present when good improvisers are together. We are tuning or amplifying that, so it is more present. I think there is one layer for the audience but there is another layer for the performers where they have a chance also to point out, to reflect, not only to dance but also to have a shared discourse about improvisation. Another subject.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: OK… but I just want to mention I thought that was very interesting because even though it is implicit to improvisation listening to the other\u2019s body and in this case to the other\u2019s speech too, we tend to consider more important to speak than to listen. I felt it was an interesting negotiation you allowed us to experience together with the performers at the moment they are dealing with that. Talking about performers, how did you arrive to this specific group of artists? I am talking about the cast for New York.<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: I wanted to have some people from New York and some people from Europe, and not necessarily a comfortable group, but a group that are somehow connected or that I felt connected to. Yvonne Meier, for example, I met twenty years ago and even studied with her a little bit and I was very interested in her approach to scores. Keith Hennessy I just met recently and he took my workshop in a very intense short meeting. I wanted to have also a very mature group and a group where there would be a certain amount of tension because it would be different ideologies, different practices, different kind of approaches meeting each other. I also wanted dancers\/performers that I knew very well\u2014Vania (Rovisco) has been in my work, and we\u2019ve worked together for 5 years. But she is another generation, she is improvising on her own. And then Anja (M\u00fcller), is now in my current work so she is someone I just spent a year improvising with everyday in the studio. Personally I was interested in different kinds of approaches, different histories for me to cross. I wanted people that were as much thinkers and that feel very comfortable to speak and that can very fluently go between action and reflection, between talking and doing.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Trajal: I think it was also my input knowing the New York scene a bit. I was trying to find different people who had a relationship to improvisation but who come from a different point of view or different ideologies or methodologies. I think that was essential because, of course, David, Yvonne and I are quite different. Yvonne has a strong legacy of improvising in New York and she is a certain symbol of the history of improvisation in New York. And David Thomson is someone who is quite well known as being this incredible dancer in New York, but he also has been seen improvising a lot. He comes from the Trisha Brown history in his body, and he has worked with Ralph Lemon, among others. I think improvisation has been a good part of his practice working with these choreographers. George Emilio Sanchez I know as someone whom I have heard speak a lot and who is very opinionated. He also has a very direct relationship to this history and scene because he has been a chairman of the board of Movement Research and he performs a lot in shows that are in the dance world. So I thought he would be someone who would bring a very verbal acuity to all of this but also would relate, because he has a relationship to the stage practice. Myself, I studied improvisation more as a very young student in theater, much more so than now. I mean, only now is it starting to kind of be a part of my research and the way I compose. Because of wanting certain possibilities in the work, improv is a way of inviting a different kind of texture in the work. I think many choreographers today are using improvisation in that way\u2026 but I have to say my strongest sense of improvisation comes from being a very small child in the African-American church and the sense of the extraordinary vocal and physical language that happens there. This is what I remember so much. When I heard about improvisation, I was \u201cOh, this is very related to what was going on in my kind of Southern culture\u201d. Even my grandfather singing on the porch. My grandfather sang blues all the time on the porch. He had a group and they would sing when they got together around his house. It was very normal. And sometimes kids on the street would start teaching a new dance and it was always improvised. But in my artistic practice, I never really dug deep into improvisation or contact improvisation. Although I looked at it a lot, it was not a part of my studio practice.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: I think there is a division and a kind of conflict between work that is rehearsed and work that is improvised, but as you were saying, many dances are improvised; it is a natural thing to improvise. In street dances people relate to that in a more natural way. And bringing that to a performance space \u2013 again, there is a whole history in improvisation -, but I think it is an interesting thing to put that in a conference where people can look at it from a different angle and discuss it or watch a discussion on improvisation in a maybe \u2013 more formal way, since a conference is something that is very formal in relation to a form that is somehow opposite of this kind of established structure.<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Trajal: Yeah, it is very difficult. That is what makes Keith really interesting because he has also been writing his Ph.D., I can\u2019t say exactly what his Ph.D. thesis is on, but I know that he is doing a lot on improvisation in different ways\u2014and that is very clear when he engages in dialogue about improvisation at the table. It\u2019s very clear that he\u2019s been developing an intelligent way of thinking and writing about these issues. But in general I think the language of how we talk about improvisation is still being developed and still being argued, and that it is still in a kind of discursive problem area. Even to say improvisation is rehearsed is questionable for some people. It is not something that is not rehearsed just because it is not repeated. We are rehearsing; we are going to rehearse now.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: I am trained in contact [Improvisation], and I felt it came very easy to me and I enjoyed it because I felt very comfortable somehow. But then I realized that there was a big gap between what I wanted to show in my own work which is about the problems of communication, things that block people from being together, and I did not want this\u2026 For me things aren\u2019t equal necessarily, it is not like \u201cI roll on you, you roll on me\u201d and we have this shared agreement. Normally there is much more tension, and I wanted to also pull out this tension. So I was always trying to figure out how I can push contact by taking some of the principles and either moving into other fields\u2014like Contact with visual artists, Contact with musicians or space\u2014or in what way can we work with different languages and, not disagreements, but things becoming more jarring, pressing up against each other. This has being a kind of ongoing search for me in all different ways.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: One of the things that I am interested in is the tension between the spontaneity of speech and movement and the relation of a certain kind of pressure in saying the right thing or the coherent thing to start a movement, action or reflection or disrupt it. So how does it work while you are performing? How do you deal with this tension between spontaneity and pressure?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

(Silence)<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: I do not know quite what you mean in terms of pressure\u2026<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: Basically\u2026 (Looking at Trajal\u2019s face) You know what I mean, right?<\/strong><\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

(Sil\u00eancio)<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Trajal: Yeah, I experience this a lot in performance. I think it has to do with risk and experience. I mean, the best improvisers are very attuned in some ways. [To Meg] And you are very good at this because I have learned a lot by watching you do this. It is a level of being in tune with yourself, what\u2019s going on with yourself, and also knowing the whole so well\u2026 You have an impulse: is it the time for that impulse? Of course, if you think about that impulse too much it kills it\u2026 so it is an attunement and a constant calibration of things\u2026 it is playing an instrument, you are both playing the instrument of your individual performance and the instrument of the whole performance. And that is what the best improvisers do, they are able to take those risks, not worry, trust, go in, deep in, you know\u2026 They are able to play with that. It is a challenge, it is hard, it is hell. I mean, that is the thing. Of course, you have a huge amount of pressure to do something, to make the thing work and you can\u2019t just be \u201cdoing\u201d all the time.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: Yeah\u2026 I think restraint and not doing is a big action. That is a very powerful, very important choice. And also just always remember the context. I mean, like where you are so you are not just carried away by the moment and also know that it is on a timeline. It is an event that it is marked in time so there is a difference between the first minute and the tenth minute and the thirtieth minute. There is also somehow trying to keep track, so it\u2019s not just passing through a reel but somehow there is like, \u201cOK, this event has happened, this event is happening, this person is here\u201d\u2026 so you just really have tuned in with the timing of the whole thing as well.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: Have you ever had audience members who spontaneously came up to the microphones to speak or on the table to perform with you?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: Not spontaneously, I mean even in the dress rehearsal we invited two audience members to dance at the end and at the end we asked some questions. I thought it was quite interesting. We talked about \u201cis there discourse in New York or not about improvisation?\u201d And then one of the audience members says there is no discourse in New York. Point. And then some of the audience members added their thoughts about that. So I thought it was quite exciting when they get involved in the discussion, but for the most part we have not had a kind of sabotage action or somebody who is pushing and I think they have been quite respectful. I mean, it does seem they are open but they don\u2019t sort of like jump right in without a kind of gesture or invitation.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: How do you act as a moderator of this conference with the time of the action? Last night you didn\u2019t interfere so much, right?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: I\u2019m not the moderator in that sense. I mean, I had the set up and we together [with Trajal] chose the cast, but I have to have a profound trust in them and also the nature of improvisation. The agreements are made by the group\u2014this specific group\u2014and they are discussed: how much structure we have or not. And there is a certain amount of trust, so somehow, at the point of the show, I am also on pretty much equal ground. Because I think if you start censoring in the midst of that it can be quite dangerous.
\nI mean, there is a way to say like \u201cOK, this is missing, I will put my input in or this thing is to take off, or on a certain level I want to see this\u201d, but not to sort of cut people off or sort of clip their impulses because that can cause a real blockage to expression in the group.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: I like to think about this political body on that space and at the same time to think about the political or activist speech and how in certain moments it appears in the dance work. Many times I keep asking myself why to dance or why to watch dance, or why to write about dance, and somehow for me, personally speaking, the biggest thing about dance is the political act of moving the body in a freer way. How do you relate to that when you bring this kind of political speech to the table, and of course, it comes from different people and their specific issues, but how do you perceive this political speech and why this is so important right now?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Trajal: I think for myself there are three ways I can answer that question\u2026 one is that the personal is political, the choices we make, the things we put on the stage, the way we create the conditions, the practices that we develop around work\u2026<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: The choice of being in it.<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Trajal: This is political. For me, doing this project is political. I step into it fully because I believe it is radical and it is important that dance have a voice, especially in New York, and it is like someone said that night, there is no discourse in New York. Well, it is true, there is no discourse and it is quite marginalized, which we know about dance in New York and many of us who are working in dance are constantly trying to solve this. Number two, I think within this context of Performa, it is very important that we talk about this form. It is not at all a protest, but it is a great political testament to have it in this festival, and for people to begin thinking about it and to see its value and to read this interview about it\u2026 because that is what is incredible about this form: there is a limit, let\u2019s get real, you know. Balanchine said there are no stepbrothers in dance. And I always remember this because it is really true. Unless you say he is the stepbrother it is really hard to make a movement to figure out that that person is a stepbrother, okay? And I think stepbrother is very important because of course, \u201cstep\u201d is not just about being the brother, it is about the politics of marriage and divorce and blah, blah, blah. So, when we think about this kind of form, it allows for another level of approaching dance, of politicizing dance, thinking about these cultural, social issues around improvisation. Like Meg said before in another answer, it amplifies them in a way that makes it visible for an audience. Three, I think in this context of New York has such a political function, and I am not just talking about education and making people think that is good, but I think we really have to re-evaluate the role of the arts in culture and society. Meg asked the question the other day \u201cdo soldiers in Afghanistan improvise?\u201d I mean, that says it all right there.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: I think also it is a crossing of forms, I mean there is improvisation and performance, but you could also see it as a kind of extension of this renewed interest in the Movement Research [Performance] Journal and also, somehow the practitioners themselves can own their own discourse. And it\u2019s bringing discourse back to the body. It is not like there are not experts talking about what they are doing, or critics saying what dancers and choreographers are doing, what are doing, but they are also with themselves saying, \u201chey, we also want to discuss among ourselves, we want to have this kind of platform for ourselves\u201d. I think it is interesting that everyone that is on this table as a practitioner is also sharing the same risk. Sometimes I find it hard when people make work and then a critic shows up or an expert shows up, but [here] I love it \u2026I think it is political that we are all risking in all senses, even the ones asking the questions, the ones answering, the ones lying on the floor, the one getting naked\u2026 and we are all put on this shared level, I think that\u2019s very critical as well.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Trajal: Yeah.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: It is very interesting to see this political aspect more and more in dance, because theater has a long tradition of political theater, and dance is getting more and more political not only in a thematic way, but in its action. This work is an important platform to reflect that through this crossing of backgrounds and issues. I am also intrigued by the NATO conference picture used to promote your work. I can see a couple layers of significance in that, but I would like you to talk a little bit about the decision of choosing that picture\u2026<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: Yeah, I think everyone can immediately have some sort of image of it, it talks about the people on this table are experts, but I think also there is a whole series of translations and different points of view. There is much understanding, but there is also misunderstanding and miscommunication and lobbying. \u2026 Let\u2019s say people have issues\u2026 yeah. I think I just put it in another space rather than show a picture of a dinner table or other kinds of tables with large groups that you can imagine. And also you get clearly this idea of conferencing and that there are things to be worked out.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: And NATO is an organization about security and you are talking about risk\u2026<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: It can be also, yeah. I think crisis and emergency are often a given when you talk about improv.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: I like to think about how the dimensionality of things can completely change our perception. I really felt affected by that huge table and the way its image could become a stage but also flows to the image of a celebratory space or a conference table\u2026 So, you created a space that could become many spaces. Do you have something to say about that flow between the political, the stage and the celebratory aspects of it?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

(Silence)<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: (smiling) Maybe it is just my personal reading.<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: Yeah\u2026<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Trajal: I think it is pure potentiality. (pause) It is all there\u2026<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: I would hope that when there is an action \u2013 I do not even want to call it physicality or movement – on the table, that it is also another way of perceiving it\u2026 even if it is not defined or it is not framed by those speaking, even if it is just silence, I mean, movement with music, it feels like that is speaking, it is expressing\u2026 you know, you don\u2019t say \u201cOkay, here is the dance part\u201d. But I hope also kind of makes you perceive it differently because of the context. I mean, for me I often see movement as text, I see it as authoring, I see it as expressing. I work with the intelligence of every single part of the body and how it can express someone and what else it is expressing between languages or beyond language… and I have a lot of faith in the body and the movement as well! Yeah, that is also another part, a kind of platform for this. It is part of what we want to push as well.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: The light and sound cues were also improvised? I mean, it is clear there are cues, but do they choose what to use in specific moments?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: They are improvising, it does not mean they are not preparing, I mean, all day yesterday Jan (Maertens) was here, they were following our meetings and our sessions and both Jan and Hahn (Rowe) I worked with – I mean Hahn for a very long time but Jan for many productions – so, they were improvising with the experience of the kind to find tune and awareness\u2026 for Jan, he has been following this Auf den Tisch! projects, but there are no set directions \u2026 I mean, they discuss, Jan discusses his concept with me, but they are making their own choices during the course of the evening.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: Is there something important you would like to say about the project that we did not mention?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

(Silence)<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: Information about the future of this project you would like to share?<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: There are no future plans, though I feel it was the right project in the right time at the right place, let\u2019s put it that way. I felt I was really happy with the response of the audience last night. With the dancers, it is not about liking or not liking or having a good evening\u2026 it was like\u2026 I think it ran quite deep and made people really think about what they were doing, think about the kind of dialogue they were having and I think it is a big meeting. You know, I have this vision this table could stay in New York and other people could improvise on it or work on it. I feel there is a need for this\u2026 I am curious how that is goinng to move things in relation to exchange and improvisation in New York. I hope it does.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: How it is going to echo\u2026<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: Yeah, the echoes. I\u2019m interested in the echoes.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Cristiane: Thank you.<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Meg: Thank you.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Trajal: Thank you.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/strong>
\n<\/strong><\/p>\n

http:\/\/movementresearch.org\/publishing\/?q=node\/658<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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